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Gay, Homosexuality, Homosexuality and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, LGBT, Mormonism
I’d be remiss if I didn’t stand up before you, here today, and bear my testimony. Recently, there seems to be a little strife and contention in MOHO-land regarding the upcoming Mormon Stories, Circling the Wagons Conference. We all know that the spirit of the Lord excuses itself when contention enters the room, so I’d like to calmly and cheerfully weigh in on the contentious discussion.
Those who were with me a year ago will remember that I attended the first Circling the Wagons Conference. It was an affirming and safe weekend. Apparently this year’s conference is coming soon. I heard about it through 2 blog posts: Joseph Broom’s Beyond the Closet Door and Mitch Mayne’s, I am Mitch Mayne. I am an openly gay, active Latter-day Saint.
The big controversy is that a North Star leader and Josh Weed have been invited to speak at this year’s Circling the Wagon Conference. Like Mayne, when I first heard the news I was sickened.
My opinion of North Star isn’t any secret.
I find it curious that Mitch Mayne has stuck to his initial gut reaction and withdrawn his support from the Circling the Wagons.
Since I’m bearing my testimony, here are a few things that I know regarding the unwritten order of things Mormon and gay:
- I know that regardless of what the North Star speakers actually say at the conference their message will be interpreted by the extreme factions to be either the opposite of or in complete support of what they themselves believe. The 2 speakers Josh Weed and Steven Frei are divisive rather than uniting.
- I know that LDS people have a tendency to fanatically stretch a mere suggestion into a commandment, like they can transform a transgression into a super-sin. As much as North Star may claim it is not recommending a lifestyle, it is. It’s like when Hinckley made some off-hand comment about earrings once during a talk and suddenly two earrings were a sign of rebelliousness and scandalous women. Setting up Josh Weed and Steven Frei even just as successful anomalies sets the bar for what our loved ones now expect from the rest of us. They have done far more to set many of us homosexual Mormons back years than any Boyd K Packer statement in the last 10 years.
- I know that inviting not North Star speakers to the Conference sends a message of support for their ideas and beliefs regardless of what the actual Mormon Stories statement of purpose says.
- I know that in the years that John Dehlin has worked on Mormon Stories I’ve seen a lot of fluctuating with regards to his pandering to the church vs. his willingness to boldly take a stance. The pendulum swings both ways about every 18 months. It’s on the pandering end right now.
- I know that I find it difficult to believe the Circling the Wagons statement of purpose claim that they “seek spaces where Mormons (and all people) can interact as equals” when that is clearly contrary to Mormon history, principle, practice and doctrine… and this latest development. A straight married individual holds higher rank in this life and the next within Mormonism. Therefore the lifestyle that Josh Weed and Steven Frei exemplify is naturally seen as “better” or “higher”, more pure, indeed more Mormon. As much as North Star and Mormon Stories claim respect for all points of view, there’s no way to escape this unspoken fact that all other life choices are seen as inferior.
- I know that like a lot of things in Mormon culture, celebrity is valued over substance. I see Josh Weed’s inclusion as symptomatic of this.
- I know that I care about my daughters. Everyone seems to forget our daughters. I haven’t heard of one solid argument for creating an environment where our straight daughters are subjected to a marriage to a gay man. It’s wrong and it’s selfish and it’s dangerous to our young girls to encourage the idea that for some people this is a risk worth taking. Weed and Frei’s wives could testify differently til the cows come home and I still wouldn’t want it for my daughters.
- I know that focusing on the exceptions like North Star does seem to be dismissive of those of us who have been there. Even though last year’s conference was refreshing, I did not see or hear “myself” on the pulpit. This year, I believe the inclusion of bloggers similar to me, Joseph Broom and Alan Miller, to be a lot closer. I hope their messages contrast significantly with the North Star presenters’ messages and warn of the dangers and selfishness of their preferred pathway.
- I know that there’s a huge difference between a man , already married, who may find comfort at North Star and a young man not yet married making huge life choices. For the former, I concede that men like Steven Frei may have been helped by North Star. But the danger comes when single LDS men look to it as a model to emulate before they have been so entangled and end up messing up not only their own lives but a young lady’s life as well.
- I know that I don’t get Mitch Mayne’s adamant refusal to participate in the conference to be honest. Josh Weed and Steven Frei are basically just mimicking Mormon teachings for the most part and Mayne’s claim to fame is that he has become the poster boy for being gay and active Mormon. I find Mayne’s stance as confusing and detrimental to young gay men as the North Star stance. They all are out, they all claim belief in LDS teachings.
- I know that I can love the believer but hate the belief.
- I know that I feel compassion for North Star leaders and participants. I’ve been there and it NOT what they claim.
- I know that there’s not much difference between a person who can’t paint and an artist who won’t. North Star members claim to cherish their homosexuality without the need to act on it. There’s some sort of intrinsic value to gayness that they are supposedly able to benefit from without doing anything overtly gay. To me, that’s like the artist who won’t pick up a paint brush, but resigns himself to a life in an accounting firm working in someone else’s world and with all the creativity only happening in his head. It’s disappointing that those people are seen as “stakeholders” in the Circling the Wagons concept.
- I know that “Circling the Wagons” for me conjures up an image of facing inward as a group to protect those who need protection. I felt that last year as mostly straight folks rallied to the defense and support of gays who have suffered in the LDS faith. I know that I wouldn’t feel that in North Star’s presence. It feels to me that the Conference board is allowing in wolves in sheep’s clothing.
- I know that it may not be all as bad as everything I’ve born witness to above and that the conference will probably be just fine. Part of me still wants to agree with letting everyone in to speak and participate. Heck, invite the Westboro Baptist Church for I all care.
I won’t be going to Circling the Wagons this year… not because I wouldn’t, but because I wasn’t planning on it anyway. It would be too expensive of a trip for me right now. Please return and report if you go.
Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live; it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.
And unselfishness is letting other people’s lives alone, not interfering with them. Selfishness always aims at uniformity of type. Unselfishness recognizes infinite variety of type as a delightful thing, accepts it, acquiesces in it, enjoys it.
Oscar Wilde
I say these things in the name of cheese and rice, Amen
PS. Please bless the refreshments
See Also:
Important clarification about Mitch Mayne’s relationship to Circling the Wagons
The Son of a Gay Man Weighs In on Josh Weed and the Mormon Gay Movement
Dad's Primal Scream 
You should probably correct the part about Hinckley making an offhanded comment about ear piercings. When he says that the first presidency and the quorum of the twelve are united in a statement, it’s hardly offhand.
I don’t see anywhere in the “B”s talk where he says the first presidency and Q of 12 are united against 2 earrings…the truth is that that’s the only part of the whole talk that anyone remembers and many other parts are more significant and profound. That’s why I call the earring “off-hand”. I still say it was off-hand and not meant to be taken so fanatically…unless you can show me otherwise.
This is the most interesting and informative series I have read about the CTW controversy. I appreciate Joseph’s comments. I was not aware that CTW spun off from Mormon Stories. I dropped the main MoSto group a few months ago since I was not interested in the theological debate and must have missed the spin off in the LGBTQ MoSto group. I understand Mitch’s stance. I understand Joseph’s stance. We each have our different journeys. If/when another CTW conference is scheduled closer to where I live (North Carolina), I’ll look at the agenda and consider attending.
Hey Primal, I came her via the pingback to my article about Josh Weed and the Mormon Gay Movement – thanks for linking! I’m glad you liked it.
This whole movement within Mormonism has been interesting to me. I sit as a casual observer, a part of a few forums on Facebook, wondering where this will all take us. Many Churches have adjusted their doctrine to allow for gays . . . I think the Mormon Church has the potential to do that . . . but it would be a long, hard road, and I’m not sure how they’d correlate their doctrine with it. (though they’ve done well at those difficult-to-grasp changes in the past . . . . . . )
A few years ago, when I was still Mormon, I went to a North Star meeting. I had met a gay kid in one of my college classes, had been praying to better understand my dad (who is gay), and approached this kid to ask my questions. He directed me to a North Star meeting, and I went to one or two. It was . . . incredibly challenging for me. The person speaking was Jim Birrel, a BYU professor at the time, who seemed like a liberal Christian in a Mormon’s clothing. He was preaching acceptance and “be yourself” . . . bending Mormon theology to fit with that message, when . . . I didn’t see how it did.
That was my limited experience with North Star, and I think it was a more liberal and accepting experience than many have – I’m pretty sure Jim Birrel was on his way out of the Church, but can’t be sure.
Anyway, the whole experience was instrumental in my eventual acceptance that homosexuality is . . . JUST FINE. It is my hope that many others who go through North Star and others will find the acceptance they’re looking for, be unsatisfied that it doesn’t allow them FULL acceptance, and then move on to finally believe that it’s OK to be gay (and to act on it). I think many will, and I think North Star provides an important challenge to Mormons who are satisfied with the answer “Bein’ gay is just like bein’ a handicap – we all have our diff’culties. Gawd still expects us to live right.” For that, I am grateful. For the kids it helps as a middle ground, I am grateful.
But I sincerely hope (and expect) not many END there, accepting that it’s OK to be gay as long as you live celibate or straight. I’d rather they be free and live in honesty and integrity with themselves, not bend themselves to the archaic society that surrounds them.
Anyway – thanks for the article, I’ll look forward (with you) to hear how Circling of the Wagons goes!
Thanks for your comments Jefferson. Your experience is valuable. I can see how North Star can be a stepping stone to greater self-acceptance…the same as FAIR or FARMS was for me regarding history and doctrine. If nothing else it exposes one to concentrated inner angst and a constant drag on happiness…
Hi. Joseph Broom here. I need to correct a few things about your post. First, you misread what my blog post was about. I was not “like Mitch Mayne” when I heard this news. Quite the contrary. It was Mitch who started this. My blog post was a response to what he said and did. I never “retrenched.” My position was always the same.
Secondly, Josh Weed is not connected with North Star. Steven Frei is currently the president of North Star.
Thirdly, Mitch Mayne was never on the board of Circling the Wagons. CTW has issued a statement regarding his public assertions that can be found here: http://circlingthewagons.org/CTW-announcement.php
Fourth, John Dehlin and Mormon Stories are no longer sponsoring or connected with Circling the Wagons. As you may know, Mormon Stories just went through a major reorganization, as a result of which CTW was “spun off” to another nonprofit organization that was founded by Anne Peffer, John’s former colleague at Mormon Stories, who, along with John Dehlin and myself, was primarily responsible for conceptualizing, creating and organizing the original Circling the Wagons conference.
Fifth, the purpose of Circling the Wagons has not changed. It is exactly what it was a year ago, i.e., to invite individuals from various viewpoints within the greater Mormon community who are touched by issues relating to homosexuality, to participate in a discussion about those issues within the Mormon world context. North Star was invited to participate last year, as was Evergreen. North Star sent a representative to participate in a panel; Evergreen declined the invitation.
CTW has posted a FAQ page regarding issues surrounding the speakers at this year’s conference, here:
http://circlingthewagons.org/FAQ-Salt-Lake-City.php
I invite you to read this page, as well as other material on the CTW website.
Lastly, just a couple of thoughts about Josh Weed and Steven Frei. Concerning Steve’s participation, as much as you and I and others may disagree with what North Star stands for, that doesn’t change the fact that there are a significant number of men who self-identify as SSA or SGA within the Mormon community. They are part of this discussion. Circling the Wagons does not, nor should any person or organization, decide for someone else where such men, or anyone else for that matter, should be in their “journey.”
Regarding Josh Weed, same comment. Josh is not advocating anything. He has been invited to share his own personal experience of how he came to realize he is gay, his process of “handling” that, what led to his decision to marry, the nature of his discussions with his wife before and after their marriage, etc.
Thanks.
Joseph,
Thanks for stopping by to comment. I’ve tried to quickly update the post to reflect the inaccuracies that you pointed out. I apologize for them. I obviously misread your post or got it confused with another one because I could have sworn that you expressed initial dislike for the speakers inclusion. But it was sloppy of me to say that without rereading your post.
I only have a minute before I need to walk out the door this morning but I hope I caught all the errors you mentioned.
I disagree, however, that Josh Weed is not advocating anything.
I’ll comment more later.
I am grateful for the thoughtful comments that have been left. Jefferson, I particularly liked what you wrote in your last two paragraphs. Thank you.
Dad – Just to clarify, what I meant when I said Josh is “not advocating anything,” is that he will not be advocating anything at the conference. CTW is quite clear that their speakers are not to try to “convert” anyone to their viewpoint; they are there to speak authentically about their own experience. Hope that clarifies.
That’s fair enough, Joseph, but I say for reasons that I stated in the post that his being given a keynote speaking role is implied advocacy. CTW Statement of Purpose can say it, but it is Mormon practice and history to disregard such disclaimers and go for the extreme interpretation…i.e. The Word of Wisdom, earrings, abortion, and certainly homosexuality. I guess my skepticism over such disclaimers is that they are largely ignored in Mormonism. On my mission we were taught to tell people that we weren’t trying to convert them but that just wanted to share a message. It’s a deceptive practice that is ingrained in us from early on … a public disclaimer, a wink-wink to each other and then sharing a testimony and strong conversion tactics… all along our original intent intact.
Well reasoned and stated thoughts, thanks. I really liked the analogy of the gay person with the artist choosing whether or not to actually paint.
Some points you make I agree more with, others less, but I share your overall attitude. For my part, the extreme reactions of some people to the idea of those two men talking are off-putting but also very saddening. If any kind of change is going to happen in Church culture and thinking, then both sides need to take account of each other. From my perspective, I actually think people like Josh Weed do a good job of this, if you just read what he writes. The problem comes in when the cultural backdrop changes how what he actually says is received and enhances the potency of parts of it and weakens others until his actual meaning is distorted. Reconciliation requires we chip away at that distortion and accept the legitimate aspects of what each other are thinking.
I don’t know. I feel like such aversion to people like Josh Weed and what he says (as markedly different from how he is perceived in the Mormon community–a frustration in which I certainly share) seems to me to reflect that these people might still be struggling with how they feel about themselves and “the Gospel,” whatever that is. That’s probably unfairly cold of me to say, because there’s reason for a(n at times) tortuous ambivalence, but something just strikes me as not quite right when people talk about having reconciled their feelings about being gay with the Church–whether it be through leaving, cherry-picking, whatever–but then get so defensive at something so inherently (though not as it is realized externally) innocuous as Josh Weed’s story.
I’m rambling. I’ll stop. Your blog sometimes makes me ramble because it stimulates thought about certain things I think about, and you seem to take my comments seriously and I like seeing what you have to say about them.
Matthew and Trevor – you both mentioned that you agreed with portions of what I’ve said. I’d love to hear which parts those are and which parts don’t resonate with you. Regardless, thanks for stopping by and commenting.
That was interesting. Agree with maybe half of it. My experience with Northstar as a young unentangled man was positive. It helped me feel not alone. I haven’t been involved for a few years now, but in this day and age if people enter into MOMs without knowing the risks, the dangers, and the statistics, it’s their own fault, not Steve Frei’s or Josh Weed’s. And if they do it knowingly, well, they’re adults.